Agris has been getting ostracized, bullied, stalked, slandered, defamed, and getting banned from various online places through very mysterious, odd, suspicious, and unfair means. This article is an effort to document and convince people that Agris is being treated unfairly, and provide a deep analysis of the people responsible for the defamation Agris is a victim of. I hope to uncover the lies and deception that people have been made to believe. I hope people will give Agris a chance to represent herself, as she hasn't been given one, as I will demonstrate.
Also consider reading Kohrokho's articlearchive as well as the logsarchive listed there.
Logs relevant to this article are located here.
Before SpinDizzy, Agris used to be on Azure's Pleroma instance tailswish.industries. Some group of people were stalking Agris's account and were harassing and reporting Agris's account to Azure. It ramped up when Agris saw someone on her feed advocating violence: curbstomping nazis. Agris told them they shouldn't be advocating violence, because that's only something hateful people curbstomp people. Then azure apparently got an influx of people going through Agris's posts and clicking report abuse, claiming the simple roleplaying was "making threats". Agris asked Azure what the reports were, but Azure refused to show them. Agris asked who made the reports, but Azure refused to show it. So Agris said the reports are obviously bogus so why not just ignore them? Then Azure told Agris that the people making the reports told Azure that if Azure didn't do anything, they would prevent Azure from being able to talk to their friends. This was going on while Azure was going through a lot of problems, including health problems, prescription issues, and overworking.
On FurNet, Agris has had beef with Bistmuthine before, in the #vore channel because Bistmuthine was claiming Agris sent animal abuse videos, even though that was false. The video in question, was actually a nature programme featuring foxes hunting birds. Bistmuthine did later downplay the issue claiming she had mental issues. Bistmuthine turns out to be Voksa on SpinDizzy.
On 19 December 2021, Agris paged "hello" to Voksa, but didn't get a response. Agris was completely ignored by Voksa.
On Christmas day, 25 December 2021, Agris got banned from the Observatory, which is owned by Voksa. So Agris contacted Ping:
Ping squeaks, "So, I've just been told by the owner of the observatory space that you've been put on a banish list for his spaces." You yip, "WHY!?" Ping squeaks, "I'm told "He knows I blocked him and want him to leave me alone." ...which is, pretty much everything I know about the situation." You yip, "I've never done anything to them" You yip, "How is this fair" Ping squeaks, "I don't know why, I don't know the situation. It's a bit surprising, really... you've been here a week. Do you know him from somewhere else?" You yip, "yes, I knew them from IRC" You yip, "and on fedi" Ping squeaks, "Ah, okay. So, I'm guessing the conflict started elsewhere." You yip, "there is no conflict i'm aware of, just silence" You yip, "and now i can't enter one of my favorite places on the muck" You yip, "whatever problem they have with me, it's never been relayed" You yip, "they are treating me like a jerk" You yip, "why does that have to extend here" Ping squeaks, "Well, I'm asking him, for my own benefit as well." You yip, "please tell me whatever they say" You yip, "i don't know why we can't discuss this" Ping squeaks, "I don't know yet."
On 28 December 2021, Agris gets invited to Ping's home to further discuss the issue. Ping quotes a pretty vague response from Voksa:
You yip, "can you please elaborate on what you mean, or perhaps just share what they said so they are not paraphrasing" You yip, "and also, why couldn't they tell me this myself" You yip, "and why do they have to act like a jerk and pretend like i don't exist" Ping squeaks, "I was just told: "Alright. I will phrase it a little better and explain the problem, and send it by pagemail when he's next offline, I don't want to prompt him to blow up at people or anything."" You yip, "and how does that relate from banishing me from the observatory" Ping squeaks, "*That* is a direct quote." Ping squeaks, "And, I'm sorry about that paraphrasing, that wasn't the message or tone he really intends." You yip, "Is that all they said to you about Ping?" You yip, "yeah, it's understandable. that's why i suspected something was lost in relay" Ping squeaks, "Pretty much. Apparently you didn't say something *specific* that upset them." You yip, "so they are upset with me" Ping squeaks, "It was just... too much, too quickly, across multiple mediums, and they just wanted a bit more space where you wanted a bit more contact, from what I can gather."
So Voksa is still "scared" of Agris, and doesn't want to see Agris? So Voksa just bans Agris from apparently the main rooms in the MUCK, proven by the fact Agris couldn't participate in the New Year's event that took place in rooms owned by Voksa.
You yip, "i think it might also be good if you let them know you'd be mediating and that i'm here trying to come from a place of understanding, not anger so they shouldn't worry about the concerns they expressed you told me" You yip, "in order to reach a resolution and mutual understanding" Ping sighs a bit. "Well." You yip, "well it's your call" Ping squeaks, "I might as well just say what they're saying, directly." <Verbatim start: Ping> => Voksa pages, "I am so tired of this. Okay. You want me to appear there and tell them to leave me alone? I am not talking to them beyond that." to you. You page-pose, "Ping sighs a bit. "Well, if that's going to be the beginning and end of it, then I suppose it's not really very necessary..."" => Voksa pages, "Yeah, I'm sorry. They wore away at me and then tried to continue after I finally had the nerve to stop them. For a while I was afraid to come to my social spaces. I just want this to be done." to you. <Verbatim end: Ping>
Voksa is really unwilling to talk to Agris for some reason.
You yip, "that's a misunderstanding, that's now why i want to talk to them"
You yip, "it's because i want to figure out whatever's going on, and why, and be done with it. if that means not talking again then so be it"
You yip, "but this has gone from zero to 9999mph out of nowhere, and instantly"
You yip, "for apparently no.... unknown reasons"
You yip, "that doesn't have to be what the resolution is though"
Ping squeaks, "I don't really know what to say. :/"
You yip, "I don't think this will be solved, only continue to fester and get worse unless some communication is had"
You yip, "because the factor of the matter is, the world is small, and we have similar interests"
You yip, "so we should get along, whatever form that may take. including where to set bounderies"
Ping squeaks, "Okay, I need you to be as specific as you can... what do you believe there's a misunderstanding about?"
You page, "Ping, keep this off the record but at one point in the #vore channel they accused me of being a zoophile and told people that I was posting videos of harming animals in the chat when all i posted was not ANYTHING even remotely close to that. It was a broll from a BBC nature documentary" to Ping.
You page, "so I literally, cannot even begin to guess what this understanding could possibly be about" to Ping.
You page, "it's possible they are crazy and coming up with this, it's possible someone has it in for me and is spreading rumors about me, or it's possible they are the one doing that" to Ping.
You page, "I confronted them about it and they apologized and thanked me for talking with them about it in private and told me they used to be in an abusive home" to Ping.
You page, "ever since that, i thought that issue was solved but i bring this up because it's the only thing even remotely relevant i can think of" to Ping.
You page, "and yes, i was pretty offended by it" to Ping.
You page, "it was a one off thing though and it didn't seem to happen again. that i know of" to Ping.
Ping squeaks, "So, first of all, saying something in this room is just as private as paging it to me..."
You yip, "ok. well i wanted to make sure you didn't send that verbatim"
You yip, "or didn't send it at all"
Ping squeaks, "I'm not going to."
You yip, "i don't have an answer to your question that you can send to them. that's my off-the-record answer"
You yip, "ping"
Ping squeaks, "Though it sounds like this is what you really feel like you need to talk with them about?"
You yip, "I don't think so, only if that's what this whole thing was about then yes, but otherwise no"
You yip, "this is CLEARLY a VERY big deal for them"
You yip, "whatever their problem with me is that they act so spiteful towards me"
Ping squeaks, "It *might* not be spiteful."
You yip, "maybe it's rumors, maybe it's nothing. maybe it's that there is nothing and they can't bring themself to apologize and admit they were wrong; but in that case why continue to keep all this effort up"
You yip, "that may be true Ping that's why i said act not is. because from my perspective it's spiteful"
You yip, "i just don't know"
You yip, "whatever it is ping i want it to stop. i want them to stop excluding me from places and creating a bad atmosphere in social spaces"
You yip, "that's why i want this resolved"
You yip, "well, one of the reasons anyways. i realize i can't do anything now but wildly speculate =("
You yip, "i'm going to make dinner"
Ping squeaks, "So, from what I can tell, by "wanting this resolved" you mean you want to be un-blocked."
Ping squeaks, "Okay. I'm going to go back to Patashu's place."
Ping squeaks, "You're welcome to come with."
Ping teleports away.
Ping has left.
You page, "at the very least unbanished from the observatory and if we happen to be in the same room together not pretending like i don't exist. that doesn't mean we have to talk to each other" to Ping.
You page, "and not spreading false rumors about me, if that's part of what's happening" to Ping.
Ping pages, "I hate to be giving you bad news, but I think at this point it isn't exactly news... it's pretty clear to me that you're not going to be unbanished from his spaces anytime soon." to you.
Ping pages, "And I have to say, he's really not told me anything at all about you, only about how he feels about things. :/" to you.
You page, "And your ok to just allow that kind of bitterness to keep happening?" to Ping.
Ping pages, "He's only brought it up in answer to questions I've had for him." to you.
You page, "are you she they are a he?" to Ping.
Ping pages, "No. Actually, I'm not. Sorry, I'm actually just screwing up pronouns apparently." to you.
Ping pages, "Their character here is a genderless "Spaceship-Dragon"." to you.
You page, "well if you find out anything else, please let me know" to Ping.
Ping pages, "I'll try, but at this point, I'm not going to try to convince someone who feels they're being harassed that they aren't actually. Do you understand where we are with this? :(" to you.
You page, "I do have one thing else to say ping. And your free to relay this to them when they aren't upset or when you feel is best. That they stated they don't feel safe in social spaces due to me I think is Irrational, Unfounded, and most important I want to encourage them to attempt some empathy and imagine how I must feel in those situations. Because it's not a good feeling. it's a very hurt and confused feeling and a feeling of them being spiteful" to Ping.
You page, "I think I do understand Ping, but I also respectfully disagree with your methods, and I think at some point (not now) i'd like you to put a foot down" to Ping.
You page, "i think that's all the energy i have to expend on this issue for today" to Ping.
Ping pages, "Okay." to you.
You page, "thankyou" to Ping.
So that's that. Voksa doesn't want anything to do with Agris, and makes being on SpinDizzy hard for Agris due to how many influential rooms Voksa owns. It isn't even clear why Voksa wants to avoid Agris. Is that conflict in #vore not settled? Apparently not. Very mysterious...
One day before Agris gets banned from SpinDizzy, 3 January 2022, Agris sends this mail to Patashu and Ping:
To Patashu: I am willing to say "I am sorry if I did anything to make you feel uncomfortable or to make you feel that I am harassing you" to Voksa I want to make the following points: 1. Make clear I am not here to ruin anybody's day. If it ruins anybody's day me simply being here that is unfair. 2. make clear I am not here to Harass Voksa 3. whatever the problem is on the other platform, I am not bringing it to SpinDizzy 4. I have not done anthing on SpinDizzy to complement these claims against me. 5. This issue was only brough to forefront when I couldn't enter spaces on SpinDizzy when all I ever did was say "hello". 6. What happens ON SpinDizzy is the issue 7. Whatever the staff want to suggest to resolve the issue I am ears open to. additionally, my friend wrote the following questions they wanted me to relay: 1 ) Not a threat - Agris is not here to ruin anyone's day. - He's not here or planning to break anyone's rules. 2 ) Wants to enjoy the space - Agris wants to enjoy Spindizzy the same as he's done for as long as he's been here. - He doesn't want drama. It's the last thing he wants. 3 ) Nature of the claim - Voksa is claiming Agris will harass them as the basis of their actions. He won't. If he has, he will not further. 4 ) Nature of the actions - Agris was, from my understanding, a neutral party in SpinDizzy at the time of the event. - The ban on him is therefore an action on a neutral party (no provocation). - It must, then, be okay (not in the legal sense but netiquette) to do any administrative action up to banning without provocation. - New accounts do not have prior provocation. These actions can be taken, therefore, on any person based on name or whim. 5 ) Question of time - Given (4), is this an indefinitely permissible action? Can it be repeated multiple times? - How long will Agris have to wait (none, week, year, indefinite) as a neutral party to gain the access a new account has? I was encouraged to join your MUCK by Agris shortly before these events and was excited to. Given (4), I am not willing to join a MUCK that could potentially do this sort of thing to a brand spanking new user, without provocation. I don't mind whatever else might happen or what judgments take place. The way this was done has serious implications. This isn't an isolated case, Agris is not special. That's entirely the problem and why it could so recklessly apply. Replace his name with anybody in the MUCK. Kohrokho, Friend of Agris
Absolutely great writeup, Kohrokho. I feel the same way. I don't want to get on SpinDizzy knowing I could get banned off there just by what my name is. This is one of the reasons why I'm writing this article. To bring this issue to light, and hope people will realize what's going on, so this issue can hopefully be resolved. And this doesn't just apply to SpinDizzy, as we'll discover soon...
On 1 January 2022, Agris talks with Patashu.
Patashu pages, "Sure - so I talked with Voksa and found the actual inciting incident. Apparently sometime ago (pre-muck), you misinterpreted Voksa's mastodon incident not federating with yours as Voksa deliberately excluding you, and DMed them non-stop every day for months after being asked to stop and through blocks. Does that ring a bell?" to you. You page, "no that's not what happened" to Patashu. You page, "I talked with ping about it some, so i'm not completely in the dark as i was before that." to Patashu. Patashu pages, "What happened, then?" to you. You page, "I trying to ask them to get in touch with their network operator which talking to ping Voksa thought was the same as asking them to join some server which isn't the same thing. Voksa than said said something about the server operators using 8chan and them being bad people. I told them I used that site at one point and was trying to talk to them about what that has to do with this and they just disconnected from the entire irc network without saying anything." to Patashu. You page, "they told ping that i was spamming them 'test' a bunch of times after that. That isn't true either. IRC doesn't have presence so when you want to see when someone's online you have to send something to them and get a error from the server saying the nick doesn't exist" to Patashu. You page, "also, I wasn't getting any reponse back from the just silence including common channels so i assumed there was something wrong with the communication chanel and did more testing" to Patashu. You page, "that is how i remember it. I can't find the logs from all the way back" to Patashu. Patashu pages, "Aha, so this was on IRC, not on Masto, at this point" to you. You page, "yeah, I was trying to leave a comment on their art on masto like i always had been which i wasn't sure if they were getting or not, so I reached out to them on IRC since that's where i initially met them. at least i think. I knew them before masto" to Patashu. Rielle has disconnected. You page, "I think I initially met them in #vore on furnet, though we do have mutual friends so it could have been before that" to Patashu. You page, "i roleplayed with them a few times" to Patashu. Patashu rumbles, "Shoot!" You page, "they also told ping they they thought I was harassing them, and they thought i came on spindizzy to harass them which couldn't be farther from the truth. When I came on spindizzy i didn't even know they were here until I i found them in the observatory and all i said to them was hello" to Patashu.
So essentially, Voksa may have cut contact with Agris because 8chan is supposedly a taboo subject. And Voksa thinks Agris is spamming them when it was just tests. Still, there's no reason this has to be made such a big deal of on the MUCK, where Agris has only attempted to initiate contact by means of a "hello", and nothing more.
On 4 January 2022, Ping says "You are no longer welcome on Spindizzy." to Agris. Agris informs Patashu and Patashu confirms.
tashu pages, "Yes. I offered my opinion, and Ping made the final decision. Do you understand *why* Ping decided to ban you, at least?" to you. You page, "no" to Patashu. You page, "ping just said your no longer welcome on spindizzy" to Patashu. Patashu pages, "I'll give you the short of it -" to you. Patashu pages, "In a page-pose to you, Ping's going to read this first, but... Agris *has* done things to people *here*. He's shown up here to continue harassing them: both Voksa and Azure. Whether *he* thinks it isn't harassment by some technicality doesn't have much bearing on it. It sure looks and quacks like that duck. He's clearly trying to weasel his way out of taking *any* responsibily for his role in events, and our AUP is very short and simple for a reason - we aren't here for rules-lawyering. Disputes are clearly supposed to be brought to wizards. He apparently didn't like the answer he got from me, so he went to you instead. At this point, I see no reason to think that he's going to contribute positively to spindizzy, and several reasons to think otherwise." to you. You page, "but i am contributing positively to spindizzy. I'm even building a place" to Patashu. You page, "and you saw my roleplays" to Patashu. You page, "what about xedwa!?" to Patashu. Patashu pages, "I argued your case, but Ping's the Wizard, not me. I don't get to make the final decision." to you. You page, "what was your opinion?" to Patashu. You page, "please don't do that. I really enjoy it here and I am going to miss out" to Ping. You page, "I have friends here, and i'm involved in several roleplaying events" to Ping. You page, "and I am even building a spot" to Ping. Patashu pages, "I agreed that your behaviour and attitude towards Azure and Voksa has shown that you're generally oblivious towards the way you handle disputes with others, and that you feel entitled to have them resolved in your favour using whatever resources are available, but that you hadn't done anything bad to anyone *here* yet. Ping's view was that the pattern of behaviour constituted harassment even if you don't see it that way, and that's enough to be ban-worthy on its own. (Basically what I posted to you before)" to you. Dawnwing pages, "Look, I'm sorry, but at the moment I do trust Ping" to you.
So apparently the reason Agris isn't welcome on SpinDizzy anymore is because of supposed "harassment" to Voksa and Azure? This, however, seems impossible as all Agris did was page "hello" to Voksa. There is nothing Agris has done to harass anybody on the MUCK. Agris didn't even contact Azure at all through the MUCK, so the harassment the wizzes are referring to is either some event outside the MUCK, or it is made up. When Azure abandoned Agris without any indication as to why, it was natural for Agris to seek out what is going on, and has tried establishing contact through various means like letters, worried about Azure's health issues. If that is the event that SpinDizzy wizzes are referring to, it still does not make sense to me why this issue is brought into the context of the MUCK, considering Agris has never made direct contact with Azure on the MUCK.
Agris also tried to get Dawnwing's contact information, someone who Agris had good terms with on the MUCK.
You page, "can i have your contact information" to Dawnwing. In a page-pose to you, Dawnwing would need to know the reason for the ban before continuing in that regard! You page, "that's more than i can explain when about about to be imminently disconnected" to Dawnwing. Dawnwing pages, "Look, I'm sorry, but at the moment I do trust Ping" to you.
Dawnwing has completely 180'd on Agris, completely trusting the administrators on the MUCK.
Later that day, Agris gets banned from SpinDizzy.
In the evening, Agris connects to SpinDizzy as guest, and attempts to exchange contact info with e.g. Chevesh
You page, "so no i'm finding myself banned or stigmaized and outcasted from various scifi writing and furry communities because Voksa's slader, from a misunderstanding they refuse to resolve" to Chevesh. You page, "I don't want to lose you too" to Chevesh. You page, "i liked roleplaying with you and i liked xedwa" to Chevesh. Chevesh whispers, "This is my final ruling: I don't know who you are. But I know Voksa. And I'm being asked to pick sides based on hearsay and second-hand accounts for drama I have nothing to do with. The end result of this conversation is: I'm not going to lie and say I can count as a character witness for you, when I can't. And I'm really not interested in expanding my sphere of social interaction beyond the MUCK and discord." to you. Chevesh whispers, "Yeah, the RP was nice, and I was really starting to like you. But trying to draw me into this drama is really annoying me." to you. You page, "please understand i can not explain everthing here, and I am asking for your help to continue being here. If I can negotiate some alternative contact method for you i can show you with logs what's going on" to Chevesh. You page, "I just need someone to vouch for me that they enjoyed my presence here on the muck" to Chevesh. You page, "and that they don't want me banned" to Chevesh. You page, "can you at least do that for me?" to Chevesh. Chevesh whispers, "I already did that. Ping asked me, and I told her that I didn't have anything negative to say about you, other than that you were a little controlling when you were telling Relee to stop using voice chat during the Xedwa RP. That my interactions with you were pleasant. But I also told her that I'd heard no rumors, didn't know what was going on, and did not know you well enough to vouch as a witness to your character." to you. You page, "well ok. when did that happen?" to Chevesh. Chevesh whispers, "Right after your shout about being banned." to you. You page, "could you talk to the other people we've played with, especially in xedway and get them to tell ping as such as well?" to Chevesh. You page, "I really want to continue the last xedway mission" to Chevesh. You page, "xedway" to Chevesh. You page, "xedwa" to Chevesh. Chevesh whispers, "I'll give Ping the list of names from Xedwa, and suggest that she ask them." to you. You page, "ok" to Chevesh. You page, "chevesh, can you imagine how I must be feeling right now?" to Chevesh. You page, "I really loved it here and this place was right up my ally.I even began to create my own worlds and items which i wanted to share" to Chevesh. Chevesh whispers, "No, I can't. Because I don't know you. And I'm not going to take hearsay as fact." to you. You page, "and also, is there something going on with Ping where they would cause them to act so rashly and harashly?" to Chevesh. You page, "maybe more staff eyes on this would be better. and about hearsay, that's completely understandable. that's what this whole thing is about" to Chevesh. You page, "hearsay that causes people to get outcasted" to Chevesh. Chevesh whispers, "I see no evidence that she did act rashly or harshly. But strictly, no, I don't think there's anything going on with her that would cause her to act that way, that I'm aware of. Really, she usually stays well back and doesn't get involved in things, from my experience. It takes something really drastic for her to step in and moderate people. I feel like she doesn't enjoy that part of the job at all." to you. You page, "I'm literally crying right now" to Chevesh. You page, "well, if it's not too much to ask I would like to be let know what's going on periodicly. I'll check in here so you don't have to go anywhere" to Chevesh. You page, "but if you find out i've been unbanned or something and i'm not here you know how to contact me" to Chevesh. You page, "i still wanted to hunt you" to Chevesh. You page, "or be hunted. and i was goingto say tonight before i was told i was going to be imminently banned and drama started" to Chevesh. You page, "that I saw your fox-hunting medal, and as a fox i was worried" to Chevesh. You page, "wanted to ask you about that really" to Chevesh. You page, "but not now of course. I literally can barely do anything right now" to Chevesh. You page, "i just need the support of my friends" to Chevesh. Chevesh whispers, "It was nice knowing you, Agris. We had a couple of fun moments. But you're really talking to the wrong person, if you want to build a case here. I might be the worst possible person for you to talk to. Because I tend to be pretty immune to emotional manipulation. I will tell Ping the names of the people in Xedwa, and forward your request. But I'm not going to do anything more than that. I'm not going to contact you outside of the MUCK, and I'm not going to wave a banner and fight for you to be allowed to stay. Partially because I have no idea what's going on, and I'm not going to be manipulated with second-hand stories I'm not sure of myself. Partially because I -am- a character witness for Voksa, and I admire them a lot. And partially because I trust Ping and Patashu without question. I think this is the end of our acquaintance." to you. You page, "I know i was here only for a short while, so everything is really stacked against me here. And that's terrible. I appreciate that, and if you do find someone who is a better person for this please do pass on my contact info" to Chevesh. Chevesh whispers, "Will do. I hope you have a nice night, Agris." to you. Chevesh teleports away. Chevesh has left. You page, "and to be clear, i'm not saying patashu or voksa is a bad character. Patashu is good. Voksa probably isn't intentionally doing this but they are certainly making things more difficult. What is going on here is a HUGE misunderstanding and a failure to communicate" to Chevesh. You page, "and i don't want this to be our last contact." to Chevesh.
So Chevesh said they "trust Ping and Patashu without question", but what if I remind you that Ping said Agris is no longer welcome, without any explanation to Agris? There is absolutely zero transparency about this situation. Patashu has to explain it, and it is still vague and nonsensical. What harassment? What did Agris do to harass Voksa and Azure? Why is this in the context of the MUCK? Why did Azure cut contact? Why did Voksa cut contact? Why is everyone so opaque towards Agris?
And that's not the end. After further investigation, it seems there's more going on.
Agris has joined SpinDizzy a few times after the ban as guest to try to get contact information with her friends, but all her friends seemed to have turned against her, saying they're not allowed to talk to Agris. Are they being threatened against talking to Agris?
Agris also asked to have logs of Xedwa, which Agris had contributed to. Ping refused. We even tried logging in as guests but guests weren't allowed to view Xedwa.
On 10 January 2022, Agris got this email from Austin:
Agris,
There are rooms on SpinDizzy that are accessible only to a few people on a short, specific list. This is normal on SpinDizzy. Not everything is public. People have and should have private rooms.
Your specific interest in Voksa's rooms coincides with a conflict with Voksa that began outside SpinDizzy. That conflict has no bearing on whether Voksa can decide who can enter his rooms. Further, you have shown no concern over any of the large number of *other* rooms you don't have access to. To focus only on Voksa's establishes beyond doubt that the real problem is your relationship with Voksa, and not access to his rooms.
Your pagemails to Patashu and Ping, and several hours of conversation with Ping, make clear you believe you can pester people into getting your way. Further that you believe you can distract from the fundamental issue by focusing on access to Voksa's rooms. In this light, your repeated insistence on forcing entry into Voksa's personal rooms constitutes ongoing harassment of him.
You are banned from SpinDizzy. Because you have already repeatedly attempted to circumvent this suspension by attempting to regain access without permission, it is not temporary.
The Wizards, SpinDizzy
Well, we're focusing on Voksa's rooms because Agris got banned from Voksa's public rooms without any behavior that could lead up to such a ban. Agris didn't do anything besides saying "hello" to Voksa. Voksa's rooms are also not private rooms, despite some wizards claiming so, as some of Voksa's rooms are being used to hold public events! Even Ping themselves confirms that The Observatory is not a private room.
Ping squeaks, "So, yes, it looks like the places you're referring to are all owned by Voksa, then." You page, "this place isn't private" to Ping. Ping pages, "You're right, it isn't." to you.
That means that Austin's claim that Agris is forcing entry into Voksa's personal rooms are false, as they are not personal, private rooms.
I think this is a very likely indicator that this is just a excuse to hide the real reason Agris is getting banned. We literally proved why Voksa's rooms aren't private. So why is Agris banned then? Austin won't tell us. Ping won't tell us. Did Voksa spread lies about Agris? I hope you can see from this that the SpinDizzy wizzes cannot be trusted. They WILL ban you on the spot. They WILL make up a false excuse. This is like a world record for getting banned without doing anything bad. Just name yourself "Agris" and watch yourself getting banned from every furry community as you get witchhunted by Voksa, or whoever else may be behind this. And this is no exageration. The name "Agris" IS the cause for Agris's ban. Voksa acted negatively towards Agris just because they recognize "Agris". There's no other interaction between the two than Agris paging Voksa "hello", so there is no other way Voksa could form a grudge against Agris than the name "Agris" itself. Sure, the conflict may have formed before Agris joined SpinDizzy, which was on IRC, but that provides no logical reason why Agris should be immediately banned off of SpinDizzy without committing any offences on SpinDizzy.
You might argue that Agris has "circumvented" the ban by logging in as guest, but what would you do if you get banned from a place where your friends are? You're not just going to let yourself lose your friends by some unreasonable administrator, are you? Agris wanted to establish and exchange contact information with friends she made on SpinDizzy by logging in as guest and finding her friends, but unfortunately, the friends Agris has tried to contact, remained silent, either brainwashed by SpinDizzy's wizzes, or in fear of getting in trouble for talking to Agris.
Then on 31 January 2022 Austin makes this post on SpinDizzy:
20. From: Austin
On: 2022-01-31 22:57:46
This post will expire on: 2022-03-02 22:57:46 -- 28 days and 3 hours from now.
Subject: Agris banned from SpinDizzy
I regret the need to post this.
We the wizards have banned Agris for reasons I hope you will trust are compelling. We have reason to believe they may attempt to sneak around the ban, as a guest or as a new character.
If you should encounter some new person being weirdly solicitous of information about Austin, Agris, Azure, Chevesh, Patashu, Ping, Psiby, Voksa, or about the conclusion of the Xedwa-56 plot, please contact a wizard if one is connected. I would not be surprised if they attempt to connect when they see the wizards are asleep, however, and would appreciate a log of suspicious incidents.
You can send logs or concerns to me by page #mail, or e-mail me as austin@spindizzy.org. I am also available on Twitter, Mastodon, and the muck Discord, if those are more convenient for you.
I hope that this matter will be done soon.
Austin Dern
Managing Editor, SpinDizzy
Done.
Austin is suspiciously vague in this post. "for reasons I hope you will trust are compelling." Austin is not listing any reason why Agris is banned and just assumes that the SpinDizzy community will trust his word without any further questions. What's also concerning is how specific Ausitn is about the things to look out for. It's as if Austin wants to protect and censor the information from Agris. Probably the craziest is the mention of the Xedwa-56 plot. Why should Agris not be allowed to know the Xedwa-56 plot? This makes me feel Austin's intentions are not good.
Austin gave Agris a backup of her character, but Austin said that the messages have been encrypted due to the "encryption scheme" used by the page #mail program, so Agris can't read what people have sent to her. I'm not sure if that is on purpose to prevent Agris from reading what people have paged to her.
On 7 May 2022 it was announced on SpinDizzy that Chevesh erased her online existence, supposedly because she was going to die. Chevesh has showed Agris around on the MUCK, done RP with Agris, and did colaborative writing on Xedwa-12, of which Agris was never able to write or see the last chapter after Agris got banned. Chevesh also said behind Agris's back that Agris is an asshole, and that they trust Voksa. If that's true, and she's dead now, that means she died thinking Agris is an asshole, which is just extremely sad and unfair.
On 10 February 2022, Agris got banned from #affection in the middle of the night. So Agris contacted TrueWolves to ask why:
Agris [08:49:50] Why did you ban me from #affection? TrueWolves%wolf.furnet.org [08:52:40] I already had warned you about misrepresenting arguments to attack them or other such strawman fallacy tactics. (Not everyone has or will ban evade.) There was also already multiple people who had come to me in PMs about feeling you stalk them. I awaited further behavior before counting those as strikes, but with the disregard for a warning within less then 24 hours and said complaints, it's enough strikes for a ban from the channel.
The first thing that I notice is that "multiple people" had come to TrueWolves's DMs to complain about Agris supposedly "stalking" them. Who may these people be? This seems to be an onsetting pattern. First on SpinDizzy, now on FurNet. I assure you I have read through the SpinDizzy and FurNet logs, and there is no case where I think Agris could've been stalking anyone. All Agris did was page "hello" to Voksa, which is when all this started. So if they're going around on FurNet complaining about Agris stalking them, that's really strange and suspicious. Why would Voksa, Azure, or whoever it may be be going around everywhere where Agris is and trying to get them banned everywhere? Who is the real stalker here? It sounds plausible that the DMs received by TrueWolves are from the real stalkers, with motives to get Agris banned. It also sounds plausible that the DMs are completely made up by TrueWolves and do not exist.
Agris [08:54:23] > I already had warned you about misrepresenting arguments to attack them or other such strawman fallacy tactics. > There was also already multiple people who had come to me in PMs about feeling you stalk them. what argument had I misrepresented and who was i 'attacking' and who told you they were 'feeling me stalk them' your going to ban me because someone 'feels' something TrueWolves%wolf.furnet.org [08:56:21] You were complaining about a video game and about OSes, making up information about both (that the former was on a multitude of things it wasn't, that the latter was a limited form of Linux) because you didn't like them and were arguing why people shouldn't like them. I warned you to stop misrepresenting things that you don't like, as it's an unfair logical fallacy. Agris [08:56:40] yeah i stopped when you asked me to
I recommend you open the #affection log so you can see for yourself what went down.
Agris did stop after the warning. For context, it was Agris complaining that video game consoles (like the Switch) are designed to be locked down. It was just Agris sharing her apparently infamous opinion, and probably due to uninterest in gaming consoles, not getting some facts right. TrueWolves seems to see this as a logical fallacy, but I doubt it is anything more than just ignorance to the inner working of the Switch. It doesn't make much sense why this is now also one of the reasons Agris is banned from #affection. In any case, it was just a warning right?
TrueWolves%wolf.furnet.org [08:56:53] I didn't use the word attack, you're putting words into my mouth. I said more than one person has come to me about being stalked. I will not exponge other people's private information. That's just a complete disrespect for Opsec.
Is TrueWolves keeping the identities of said reporters anonymous on purpose, to mislead Agris? Are the reporters fake and did TrueWolves make this up on the spot? Who are said reporters anyway? Still, it sounds unreasonable to accept a form of mass stalker reports like this. They can easily be fake, or coordinated attacks.
Agris [08:56:58] and i invited you to further discuss it undner private message > I already had warned you about misrepresenting arguments to attack them you said attack right here do you have any evidence for this 'stalking' it's bs TrueWolves%wolf.furnet.org [08:59:42] You did it again here: [21:55] <Agris> everybody ban evades - [21:55] <Agris> especially if they aren't given info on why Agris [09:00:09] did what there? TrueWolves%wolf.furnet.org [09:00:18] I said you misrepresent arguments to attack them, not people. Debate logic 101. Agris [09:00:24] stick up for someone i saw being abused?
Why is TrueWolves so focused on winning an argument based on the fallacies present in it? It can be considered that "everyone ban evades" is potentially overgeneralization, but Agris has outlined the motives to do so. Furthermore, this is irrelevant. TrueWolves is mocking Agris based on very simple unrelated statements. I thought this was about stalking, not fallacies. There is no reasonable conversation here.
TrueWolves%wolf.furnet.org [09:01:58] You were warned about misrepresenting arguments/strawman tactics. You continued the behavior within 24 hours. Agris [09:02:20] false TrueWolves%wolf.furnet.org [09:02:27] You're requesting private information, and you continue to misrepresent what I say as well in an attempt to argue with me. If you keep the logical fallacies up in this argument, I'll block you as well.
It seems TrueWolves just sees any kind of miscommunication as a logical fallacy at this point. You should at least try to understand the people you argue with, TrueWolves. It would be really great if TrueWolves explains where the strawman is, because I just can't seem to find it.
TrueWolves%wolf.furnet.org [09:02:58] [10:01] <Agris> now your saying I'm exposing private information? I said you're requesting private information, I said nothing about you having exposed any yet.
TrueWolves is trying to make miscommunication look like a fallacy.
Agris [09:03:17] TrueWolves I'd like appeal this ban TrueWolves%wolf.furnet.org [09:03:45] Isn't that what you're trying to do right now? Agris [09:04:44] no i'd like to more formally do it because I don't feel like your being reasonable or truthful and I much rather have a jury of my peers TrueWolves%wolf.furnet.org [09:05:08] That's assuming that the appeal process involves a jury, which isn't stated anywhere. You can by all means PM another mod about it, that's about the extent of appeal rules we have right now. Agris [09:05:43] so how long is this ban for? TrueWolves%wolf.furnet.org [09:06:04] You're not being logically reasonable with me either, I've pointed out 4 times now how you've used one fallacy or another when arguing. Personally, I also don't believe in permenant bans.
TrueWolves is not doing effort to understand the people they argue with. Just labeling everything with "logical fallacy" without explicitly saying what and why something is a logical fallacy. In the way TrueWolves does it, you could label any miscommunication as strawman. In fact, I think this is a gaslighting technique. TrueWolves is trying to make Agris believe she is committing logical fallacies, despite Agris's real attempts to have a reasonable conversation.
TrueWolves%wolf.furnet.org [09:10:18] I have proof of logs and have even identified specific statements where they are not someone else's private admission. At the momment, all you've provided to me is double standards of stating I'm using only feelings, which is what you're doing, and that I'm being unreasonable, which again, you've been multiple times already. If both a month has passed and you can provide a convincing argument of not repeating behavior that led to the ban (both in rude argument practices and stalking of users) then I'll side with you on unbanning you. Right now? You just keep repeating the same behaviors that led to the ban and then blaming me for them.
The gaslighting should be crystal clear at this point. The proof of logs? Where are they? TrueWolves is making this all up. If he is being sincere, he would have provided insight into the wrongdoings Agris has supposedly committed, and references in the relevant logs. Instead, TrueWolves is attempting to gaslight, claiming Agris has done something wrong dictated by a mysterious log we do not possess. You cannot claim someone has done something wrong without providing the proof to what they have done wrong in the first place.
Agris [09:11:05] hold on i'm saying that you are misrepresenting logs and issue and your saying i'm 'stalking users' where is the burden of evidence TrueWolves%wolf.furnet.org [09:11:56] No, I've had other users, multiple, come to me with evidence of you stalking them. Agris [09:12:18] so i don't get to defend myself? TrueWolves%wolf.furnet.org [09:12:25] You wouldn't want someone to reveal such information of you to someone abusing you, would you?
At this point, we see a clear pattern. TrueWolves has shaped a situation where Agris cannot defend herself. Agris is left in total confusion by the absent details and holes in TrueWolves's story. TrueWolves even tries to generalize this unfair judgement by claiming "You wouldn't want someone to reveal such information of you to someone abusing you, would you?"
Agris [09:12:47] that's not how justice works TrueWolves%wolf.furnet.org [09:12:50] I also said I didn't base the ban entirely on that behavior. Agris [09:12:57] it's not guilty until proven innocent TrueWolves%wolf.furnet.org [09:13:12] Evidence is proof. Agris [09:13:25] so i don't get to dispute it? call into question the integrity of it it sounds to me like defamation TrueWolves%wolf.furnet.org [09:14:12] Not to mention, there are multiple cases in law where evidence is shared only with the jury/judge and not the accuser when there is precieved threat of retribution. If the evidence is no longer valid because the behaviors have stopped, then it's no longer valid. SAPR laws, witness protection programs, just off the top of my head. It's not just claims, it's also logs. I've been trusted with such information, you have not. Your behavior of being logically rude and using double standards doesn't paint a good picture of integrity either. Ultimately, there has already been evidence, some presented to you, of how you're guiltly. It's not guilty until proven innocent, the proof has already been provided. Now the punishment has happened, and most of your arguments have been continuing the same behavior that led partly to your ban. So, why should I unban you, based on those premises?
So first TrueWolves says there's no jury, and now tries to reference laws, as if that would be at all relevant. And why are the logs trustworthy information? If Agris is literally a participant in said logs, there is no reason to hide the logs from Agris, unless of course, the intent is to deceive Agris. TrueWolves even claims some evidence has already been presented. So far, TrueWolves has only showed some supposed "logical fallacies" from the discussion in the chat before Agris got banned. TrueWolves is just using these fake fallacies as a further attempt to deceive and gaslight Agris.
Agris [09:16:52] well, lets talked about the first issue you asked me to change the topic so i did and problem was averted TrueWolves%wolf.furnet.org [09:17:19] I also said it was a warning for having done a particular behavior twice, which was repeated again within 24 hours. Agris [09:18:25] I don't how you can come to the conclusion that defending someone who got banned is that TrueWolves%wolf.furnet.org [09:18:36] That wasn't the behavior. I already posted the logs. You keep bringing up the situation you did the behavior in, saying that is what you're doing instead. The two were not mutually eclusive. You were both defending someone else (which is not against the rules) and misrepresenting the other side to do so (which is against the rules, as it's both a logical fallacy and rude.) Considering you treat me with the same behaviors, I have all the right to block you as well. You said I'm abusing you as an admin, despite the fact I continue to talk with you and give you chances to give a fair argument.
Agris is not given a chance to give a fair argument, as TrueWolves keeps bringing up logs from yesterday and increase the fallacy counter arbitrarily to claim the offence "was repeated again within 24 hours." The logs posted do not cover whatever TrueWolves is describing in such a complicated and cryptic manner.
On 25 March 2022, Agris was having completely normal chitchat on #foxie.
Then midnight 26 March, this happens:
[01:17:36] <@coppertiger> hmm, have 2 beers in the fridge from monday. Didn't drink thursday cause I am trying to cut back a little. SHould I keep ignoring them? :P [01:20:48] -*- radicaledward drinks the beers and gets into fights with bikers [01:21:14] <@coppertiger> :O [01:21:32] <@coppertiger> Just because you can take them ed, doesn't mean you should :P [01:28:58] --> Sierra (~Sierra_ly@DAA18BAD.F69B574F.B36A18DE.IP) has joined #foxie [01:48:17] -*- radicaledward hmms [02:18:06] <@narkiel> wait, shit, you're banned [02:18:16] *** Mode #foxie -o+b agris *!*@fur-17888FD8.nuegia.net by narkiel [02:18:16] <-* narkiel has kicked agris from #foxie (narkiel) [02:18:45] <@narkiel> I can't believe I left them opd all day :/ [02:19:30] <@Sergei> Do we not also ban based on username? [02:19:47] -*- Sergei was also unaware they were banned
Agris gets banned without context. wwolfy says this:
[02:46:06] <@wwolfy> he also booted agris cos aparently he wa sbaned some time ago under different settings
I don't know who he refers to here, but apparently Agris was banned before, I'm guessing like a year ago. What's weird is that Agris hasn't done anything wrong while she was here just now, and she is getting banned from something that happened a year ago. It seems unfair to me to uphold a ban when there's no issue anylonger. But I also want to know why Agris was banned in the first place.
Sierra does some investigation for us:
[03:07:45] <Sierra> hey what happened to my friend? [03:07:47] <@coppertiger> ooh my! [03:08:20] <Sierra> I leave for 1 hour and now agris is gone? [03:08:28] <Sierra> did they quit? [03:08:34] <@radicaledward> Banned? [03:08:44] <Sierra> why? [03:08:49] <@Cecilia> Or wolf bitten? [03:08:50] <@radicaledward> Unknown [03:09:07] <Sierra> huh [03:09:10] <@Cecilia> wwolfy should know. Nothing escapes his foxy nose. [03:09:30] -*- Sierra pets wwolfy [03:09:52] <@wwolfy> no narkiel realised thats agnis was baned her under different enough paramaters to be able to join [03:10:26] <Sierra> oh [03:10:27] <@Cecilia> By which wwolfy means agris was evading channel bans and got banned again. [03:10:51] <@wwolfy> i'm relying on narkiel whos very reluctant toban anyone and like me and cecilia is an admin Sierra [03:10:52] <Sierra> what did they do before? [03:11:17] <@radicaledward> Ed only bans fennecs [03:11:25] <Sierra> ok [03:11:43] <@coppertiger> but fennecs are friends! [03:11:45] <@Cecilia> No you don't, ed. That would be bad since they are so small and innocent looking. [03:12:14] <@wwolfy> normally we d ask narkiel but he left straight after Sierra [03:12:36] <Sierra> it just seemed weird to me, I didn't know they were banned before [03:12:55] -*- Sierra hugs wwolfy [03:13:02] <@Tsunji> Yip. [03:13:07] <Sierra> I'll talk with agris, ask why [03:13:09] <Sierra> thanks [03:14:12] <@Tsunji> Oh dang. I remember agris. [03:14:15] -*- Sierra yips like a fox [03:14:40] <Sierra> Tsunji: you do? [03:15:10] <Sierra> were they different? [03:15:16] -*- Cecilia recalls agris wanting her to kickban another channel admin one year ago [03:15:39] <@Cecilia> Or something along those lines. [03:15:51] <@Cecilia> Never good to start fighting channel administrators anywhere!
So apparently Agris wanted someone to kickban another channel admin. Hmm. Let's find out why.
Agris says this: > [14:49:41] <@Shentino> Wait why was agris banned? I thought that under foxiebot bans expired after a couple of days > [14:51:29] --> SharkEd (~androirc@ip70-172-30-147.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #foxie > [14:51:48] <@narkiel> starting fights and uncivil behavior. and then repeating that behavior after they were given a second chance > [14:52:07] <@cheapie> ^ i've seen them do that in many, many channels by now too, not just this one. (2022-03-26t08:18:49) Agris: blue_j was attacking me and insulting me (2022-03-26t08:19:07) Agris: nonstop (2022-03-26t08:19:11) Agris: bullying me (2022-03-26t08:19:14) Agris: so i kicked them (2022-03-26t08:19:18) Agris: i didn't ban anybody (2022-03-26t08:20:30) Squeaky Latex Folf: and why did they bully you? (2022-03-26t08:21:02) Agris: i don't remember (2022-03-26t08:21:33) Agris: i think it was because i asked them if they could use a different image host than imgur (2022-03-26t08:21:39) Agris: because imgur was just a grey screen
So essentially Agris got banned because she asked Blue_J to use a different image host, and Blue_J started attacking Agris over it or something. Wow. And one year later Agris is not allowed another chance?
Later, Shentino comes in and continues discussing the ban.
[14:49:41] <@Shentino> Wait why was agris banned? I thought that under foxiebot bans expired after a couple of days [14:51:29] --> SharkEd (~androirc@ip70-172-30-147.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #foxie [14:51:48] <@narkiel> Starting fights and uncivil behavior. And then repeating that behavior after they were given a second chance
Is this about the Blue_J imgur incident?
[14:52:07] <@cheapie> ^ I've seen them do that in many, MANY channels by now too, not just this one.
I wonder what cheapie means.
[14:52:32] <@Shentino> Let me guess, this time we're adding "ban evasion" to his rap sheet
How is it ban evasion if Agris didn't even willingly perform it? From what I know Agris was just able to join #foxie, not knowing and not actively thinking about the long past of one year ago. So what makes that ban evasion?
[14:53:35] <@narkiel> actually repeat offender in that regard too [14:53:46] <-- RebelCoyote (~Rebel@66-90-228-188.dyn.grandenetworks.net) has quit (Quit:) [14:54:10] <@Shentino> How long ago was his previous ban? [14:57:42] <@narkiel> idr. Why the sudden interest? They're not doing that thing where they beg you to appeal on their behalf, are they? [14:58:07] <@narkiel> Because they have done that to a whole ton of regulars in the past, fyi
What would you do if you got banned for dubious reasons? Just shrug it off? FurNet is one of the only active furry IRC servers I know of. It's not like Discord where there are hundreds of different places to go to. So small-world IRC is more going to suffer from this brigading behaviour. Let alone the ban on SpinDizzy. This cannot be shrugged off now. Such coincidental, subsequent bans requires investigation.
[14:59:31] <@Shentino> Not this time, I'm digging into this on my own. [15:00:51] <@Shentino> But if you want me to take that as a hint to butt out of it just let me know. I sense from your tone that you don't appreciate me sticking my nose into it. [15:05:07] <@Shentino> I did however forward some messages here back to him so now he at least knows he's banned and why [15:05:12] *** Mode #foxie +b agris!*@* by Shentino [15:05:57] <@Shentino> I'm not personally in favor of his ban, just for the record, just leaving his nick on the list so he doesn't come back by mistake until a proper appeal, if any [15:06:22] <@Shentino> but yeah narkiel, were you trying to get me to drop the subject? [15:06:54] <StealthFox> ooo foxie drama :3c [15:07:23] <@Shentino> I don't know if it's drama or not, I wasn't around when he was banned originally [15:07:40] <StealthFox> i have no idea lol [15:08:07] -*- Octavia barks at fox drama [15:08:25] -*- StealthFox foxes Shentino and Octavia [15:08:26] <@Shentino> but no he didn't beg me to appeal for him. He's a bit of a friend of mine so I was curious what happened. [15:08:41] <radicaledward> :v liiiies [15:08:54] <@Shentino> I also know there's been flux in ban expire policy so I figured he might not have known he was actually banned still. [15:09:32] <@narkiel> he has been told why he was banned and that it was a permanent ban. Multiple times
When? A year ago? Agris has never received such message or it was just too long ago. Agris told me she was never told that or why she got banned.
[15:09:40] -*- narkiel lix radicaledward :3 [15:09:48] --> Little_Tails (~Little_Ta@fur-26732636.dc.res.rr.com) has joined #foxie [15:11:12] <StealthFox> Octavia: its like a theme park ride [15:11:16] <@Shentino> Ok, in that case I propose that next time he's found in here the matter is escalated to the furnet ircops for CoC violation on a count of ban evasion
And here we see a threat to brigade Agris off of FurNet. Really, all Agris did was participate in a room she hasn't been in for a year, also mysteriously unbanned. Is it really ban evasion if your ban system is not functioning?
[15:11:49] <@Shentino> this now makes two channels he has a problematic history with
Yes. There are many channels where Agris has been brigaded out of. I wonder why Agris has been bullied out of so many channels for so many dubious reasons.
[15:12:52] <@Octavia> I just woke up, should I know what's going on? [15:13:11] <@Octavia> Shentino: tbf that's what I first though of too, you are dealing with furries here. :p [15:13:39] <@Shentino> But yes just as a reminder to everyone, per FurNet Code of Conduct it is in fact a network offense to evade a channel ban or an ignore, and it is punishable by a network ban/k-line
So you get k-lined when you join a channel a year after a ban when it has magically disappeared. Sounds like a great server. What makes this even worse is that Agris has not done anything remotely bad in the time she was there now, everyone just mentioning year-old events without even questioning said events, or discussing them. It's all just about the fact that Agris has been banned in the past, and everyone just goes with that rather than taking it into consideration. Furthermore they are all claiming that joining a channel after the magical expiring of a ban and just doing chitchat is ban evasion.
Sierra later goes on to investigate the ban further.
[15:35:54] <Sierra> narkiel: hello I want to talk to you about you banning a friend yesterday [15:36:09] <@narkiel> No [15:36:18] <Sierra> why? [15:36:37] <@narkiel> Because I just spent the last hour discussing it with Shentino after having discussed it with Agris many times
Agris has confirmed to me that narkiel never talked about it with her, so is narkiel lying, or what is going on here?
[15:36:58] <@narkiel> And their Modus Opperendi is to enlist anyone they can to pester us about banning them [15:37:07] <@Coyo> Huh [15:37:08] <@Shentino> Hold on narkiel they didn't enlist me [15:37:19] <@Shentino> I did this on my own because I was curious [15:37:20] <@narkiel> they know what they did, they know the duration and span of their ban, and I'm not interested in discussing it further
Agris actually does not know what they did, according to you anyway. Everything has been total guesswork. Almost no one wants to quote exactly where Agris did anything wrong, as if this is their technique of brigading and bullying Agris out of every place, trying to get people to trust their non-backed claims. Just like with SpinDizzy, but on SpinDizzy, we don't even get to see the claims made against Agris! Here we see claims that have not been backed well by evidence and logs, and I had to ask Agris for one thing they remember (being the Blue_J imgur incident).
[15:37:24] <Sierra> ok, sorry I didn't know about Shentino getting involved [15:38:01] <@Shentino> I don't appreciate being accused of being a meatpuppet [15:38:12] <@narkiel> I didn't say you were, shentino [15:38:18] <@Shentino> well you kinda implied it :P [15:38:29] <@Thedinosaur> can you unban him so he joins so i can ban him? :v [15:38:34] <@narkiel> I said that I had spent the last hour discussing it with you. Then I said that they like to enlist people. Those are two different statemntes. [15:38:34] <@Shentino> no [15:38:39] <@Shentino> ok [15:38:39] <@radicaledward> Can shentino be ed's meatpuppet? [15:38:45] -*- Coyo chews on Octavia's tail. [15:38:47] <@Shentino> ...ok this got lwed [15:38:48] <@Shentino> *lewd [15:39:05] <@Shentino> thedinosaur: no, only arca can do that at this point [15:39:09] <@StealthFox> m'eatpuppet *tips... i dunno, the banlist?* [15:39:12] <@Shentino> the ban was issued by a channel admin [15:39:24] <@narkiel> I mean, I could unban him, but I won't [15:39:32] <@Shentino> And I tacked on a nickname ban just to make clear that he's persona non grata [15:39:35] <@narkiel> there's a couple other admins too [15:39:48] <@Shentino> my point being that any appeals are above your paygrade [15:40:04] <@Coyo> Its rare for anyone to get banned here. [15:40:27] <@StealthFox> are you implying we let any old trach in? :P [15:40:33] <@StealthFox> trash* [15:41:00] <@Coyo> Just that its pretty low drama in my experience
Well Coyo, I am really wondering how it is everytime that Agris gets banned even in the most "low drama" places on the internet. It's truly astonoshing and awful. I am suspecting there are people actively trying to get Agris banned. I think it's also likely that the people with a grudge against Agris has been a loud minority, complaining so much that Agris is getting banned from the entire network.
[15:41:03] <@Thedinosaur> we get paid for +o? :v [15:41:06] <SolidusRaccoon> Hay, I resemble that!!! [15:41:28] <@Shentino> Sierra: from what I gather it was for being uncivil and picking fights. And also for multiple counts of ban evasion for which I'd like to point out myself that he's lucky he didn't get a k-line for [15:42:07] <@Coyo> Oh FurNet stuff. [15:42:09] <Thedinosaur> Not it broke. >:T [15:42:14] <Thedinosaur> *Now [15:42:15] <@wwolfy> i talked to cecilia she said a year ago he was making a fuss and got baned by celery then made a fuss to her about removing or overriding him so that makes several admin hes anoyed here
I think this was relevant to the Blue_J thing. It's absolutely sad no one could resolve this manually and Agris had to be bullied over it.
[15:42:34] <@wwolfy> i seem to remember sevral events [15:42:50] <SolidusRaccoon> Isn't there also a fox that has been banned? [15:42:51] <Sierra> Shentino: k-line? [15:43:04] <@Shentino> Sierra: network/server ban [15:43:09] <Sierra> oh [15:43:19] <@Shentino> as in you get banned from EVERY channel as well as all pms [15:43:32] <@Coyo> Sierra: IRC server thing. [15:44:14] <Sierra> wwolfy: agris did that? [15:44:27] <@wwolfy> yeah [15:44:42] <Sierra> hmm [15:48:07] <Sierra> from what I've been told it was another nick who was pestering agris and agris decided to kick them without worrying that they were an admin [15:50:09] <@Shentino> At this point I want us to stop talking about it, it should be between arca, agris, and the furnet ircops at this point [15:50:09] <@Coyo> Yeah, that doesnt surprise me. [15:50:49] <@Shentino> He's been busted for bandodging this time [16:10:59] <@celery> Jeez, agris is still trying to get in here? [16:11:27] <@celery> I'd happily unban him if he learned how to stop being a twat, but everyone tells me that he's just as bad as he's always been.
Who is this "everyone"? This might imply there's a group of people indeed going around spreading negativity about Agris. We don't know why, though. We have been trying to figure this out, but it is all unclear. So far, everyone we've asked is just being insincere to us, like TrueWolves.
[16:11:28] <@Shentino> celery: Yes, he just got nailed for ban evasion [16:11:33] <@celery> Rad. [16:12:06] <@Shentino> I don't want him unbanned at this point. Item one on the "don't be a twat" list is "don't fucking bandodge" [16:12:17] -*- celery shrugs [16:12:22] <@Shentino> he needs to learn to accept when he's not welcome.
It was not clear to Agris at all that she was not welcome. Her participation in this channel this year has been completely fine until wwolfy showed up to ban them on whim of what happened last year.
[16:12:56] <@Shentino> Part of being a proper guest is recognizing the authority of your host to toss your ass. [16:13:11] <@celery> Yeah, take about 20% off the top there bud. [16:13:35] <@Shentino> I'm only hot and bothered because this isn't the first time, or place, that he's done this [16:14:47] <@Shentino> and it's a bit of a trigger topic for me [16:16:10] <@Shentino> tone aside though he really does need to learn to respect boundaries. I don't know if you heard how much badgering he did about his ban from #affection [16:16:46] <@celery> Well, good thing this isn't #affection and good thing he's still banned here and good thing that isn't changing. [16:17:01] <@Shentino> oh he never got unbanned their either :P [16:17:41] <@Shentino> in fact it was brought to my attention that he's blacklisted with the owner and had no business patronizing the channel in the first place [16:17:49] <@celery> Cool. [16:18:04] <@Shentino> let me guess, you're ordering me to drop the subject [16:18:12] <@celery> Glad you picked up on that. :)
Agris, Distaza, and Sierra talk with Lymril about the situation. Lymril essentially says that FurNet does not regulate channels, and the only rule they enforce globally is ban evasion. Lymril advises Agris change her nick to avoid conflict, as long as it's not done to do ban evasion. Lymril advises Agris to just join different channels than try appealing for ones that have been troublesome.
Lymril "If you keep pushing it when they don't want to talk to you, it can be considered harassment or stalking."
All Agris has done is talk to the administrators of the channels she's been banned from, in the hopes of gaining an understanding for the reason of the bans, and to appeal. Unfortunately, all administrators have been very unreasonable. Claiming Agris is harassing just because of contacting chanops for appealing a ban, a one-time contacting manner, is nonsensical. Agris has not repeatedly contacted chanops, so there is no harassment factor there.
distaza "If anything can be considered harassment, what's the maximum action that can be taken against it?"
Lymril "If it's pervasive, a network ban."
Agris "That's kinda de-personizing."
distaza "Agris, you know that making this issue directly with the staff, regardless of how moral you think it is, will go nowhere.
Even just questioning its morality can be considered a form of harassment, as we've outlined."
Lymril "Exactly. It could end up going badly for YOU. If they want to be left alone, leave them alone."
distaza "If anything can be harassment, including just presence, a 'pervasive presence' could be bannable?
Lymril "Harassment is a very vague term. It's all in the eye of the beholder." (To the contrary. It's defined very clearly in the network rules, and then made inconsistent with a giant loophole.)
distaza "So server bans are by-eye then.
So long as it's under harassment."
Lymril "It's a judgment call and far from perfect. If they don't want you bothering them, then don't. Forget about it."
distaza "Yeah. Alright, well thanks for giving us the tour."
Lymril "I hope it helped, at least."
distaza "At least we established exactly -what- the boundaries are without any uncertainty."
Lymril "Yes. If you're banned from a channel, that's pretty much it. If you keep fighting it, the only way to do it is to keep finding undiscovered proxies and ban evading. There's an official name for that. It's "troll"."
distaza "Mm. The rules here would mean that once you've been detected and been given a bad run, you have not many options even if you rejoin under a new alias.
As if you become 'present' again, it's over."
Lymril "Right. And you should not rejoin if you know you aren't wanted."
So essentially harassment is undefined, according to Lymril. And this fact has been abused clearly. Still, Agris does not fall under the "troll" defined by Lymril, because Agris is not evading any bans, not using any proxies. Agris also was completely unaware of the fact she is apparently not welcome in the channels she has just gotten banned from. This proves it is possible for chanops on FurNet to brigade and gaslight people into believing someone has ban evaded, without them even knowing they did so, or even having done so. In the case of Agris, the ban may have been from the Blue_J incident, however this has seemingly been lifted, perhaps automatically or accidentally, as Agris was able to join, without use of a proxy, under the same nick. So what is the deal? This is not Agris's fault.
On 30 March 2022, Agris got this message when connecting to FurNet:
wolf.furnet.org: *** You are banned from FurNet (Immature/Underage)
People on FurNet have brigaded together to get Agris banned. Another ridiculous FurNet ban going down into history. If you look up "furnet ban" on any search engine you will find Agris is not the first one. And "Immature/Underage" too? Wow, how is that even possible? Agris is not underage. What did they claim?
What is the real reason for Agris's ban? Is it ban evasion? If so, I already demonstrated why this would be a nonsensical ban reason. It is also possible Agris has been banned due to harassment, whatever that could mean. In that case, that could confirm that trying to appeal a ban in itself is "harassment" as far as FurNet is concerned. And as you will find in other FurNet bans, this is not hard to believe. FurNet has built up a reputation for banning people for dubious reasons, and I bet that's why AnthroChat exists.
I've joined #vore to inform people Agris was just banned, but it turns out no one really cares about Agris inside the #vore channel, and woob has gone so far to demand me to stop discussing it or I'd face administrative action.
Weirdly enough, several days later Agris was able to join again. While Agris was on FurNet, she contacted chiv about the happenings in #vore. But chiv does not care and insists that no one cares about #vore: a channel about eating people, as chiv words it.
On 15 April 2022, Agris realized Azure fully deleted Agris's account from tailswish.industries, Azure's ActivityPub/Pleroma instance.
Sierra decided to ask Azure why they're trying to kick Agris off the internet.
16:50 Sierra | hello 16:52 Sierra | hey knock it off 16:52 Azure | Yes? 16:52 Azure | I'm not doing anything. 16:52 Sierra | trying to get agris off of the internet, at least have the courtesy of telling them why 16:52 Azure | I'm not trying to get him off the Internet. 16:52 Azure | I'm trying to geth im to stop stalking me. 16:53 Sierra | in what way are they stalking you? 16:53 Azure | Continuing to try to contact me after being told to LEAVE ME ALONE. 16:53 Azure | They've tried to call me on the phone 16:53 Sierra | I'm honest because I only have their perspective and want to know yours 16:53 Azure | They've sent me mail 16:53 Azure | They told someone they were thinking of dropping in on me.
Agris has tried establishing contact through several means. Precisely, Agris has sent a letter asking about Azure's health and if they are okay, and Agris has called Azure 3 times. The reason Agris did this is because she was close friends with Azure before all of this stuff went down. As I've explained earlier, at some point when Azure was going through a lot of problems, Azure completely cut contact with Agris. Agris, to this day, does not know why Azure doesn't want to be friends anymore. Even if this can be considered a grey area, note that this does not explain all the bannings that has happened so far. What bad has Agris done to Voksa, for example? Has Agris done bad to anybody? We don't think so. No one wants to tell us what Agris has done to get such bad treatment everywhere.
16:53 Sierra | oh 16:53 Azure | If I were trying to do anything BAD to Agris 16:54 Sierra | ok now i kind of understand 16:54 Azure | Wouldn't I have said something like "Agris is not to be trusted with any sensitive information and will abuse it to keep harassing you if you tell him to leave you alone." 16:54 Azure | NO. 16:54 Sierra | sorry 16:54 Azure | Really, if I were trying to DO SOMETHING BAD to him, don't you think I would have told you to avoid him? 16:54 Azure | When you asked? 16:54 Sierra | yes 16:54 Azure | Seriously. 16:55 Sierra | ok let me tell you something I know 16:55 Sierra | Agris thinks that you aren't in the best state of mind 16:55 Azure | I'm in a perfectly fine state of mind. 16:55 Azure | Except that I have a stalker who won't leave me alone., 16:55 Sierra | I keep telling them that it's not their business 16:56 Sierra | but they keep saying they are worried about you 16:56 Azure | Then they shoul stop stalking me and I'll be much happier. 16:56 Azure | I am not out to get them. If I were then when they bother people into talking to me, don't you think I'd say...I don't know...more BAD STUFF? 16:57 Azure | ACTUAL bad stuff? 16:57 * Sierra hugs you 16:57 Sierra | I'm sorry to get you this stressed 16:57 Azure | I'd been willing to discount this business as them being overemotional at first, but it's gone long enough I'm done putting up with it. 16:59 Sierra | it's just that they are now in a poor state of mind because of the constant banishing "without being told why" 17:00 Sierra | i'm trying to reason with them so that both of you are in good terms 17:00 Azure | BECAUSE THEY'RE STALKING MER. 17:00 Sierra | I know 17:01 * Sierra hugs you 17:02 * Azure hugs you, shrugging, "If you're wondering that's why I generally try to be friendly but keep you at arm's length, because you keep bothering me about him." 17:02 Azure | Them. 17:02 Sierra | sorry, It won't happen again 17:03 Sierra | can you please answer some things before ending this discussion 17:03 Sierra | ? 17:03 Sierra | Because Agris keeps thinking there's an internet mob after them 17:03 Azure | No, there's no Internet mob after them. 17:04 Sierra | and I don't think it's an act 17:04 Azure | They just keep doing the same things and people keep responding the same way. 17:05 Sierra | can you be more specific? 17:05 Sierra | I see what you mean but I need to find a way to tell them about that 17:05 Azure | When people tell them to stop doing something they double down on it. 17:06 Sierra | ok that seems concise enough 17:06 Sierra | thanks 17:06 * Sierra hugs you 17:06 Sierra | I also want to be your friend 17:06 Azure | They got thrown off Spindizzy /precisely/ because they kept insisting that someone they had harassed had to let them in their areas. Would not drop it, would not change the subject. I stepped back because they were harassing ME so I couldn't be impartial.
Agris has not harassed anybody on any MUCK. I don't know where Azure is basing these claims on. If anything, it has to be related to events outside the MUCK. I suppose Azure and Voksa are too intimidated just by the presence of Agris on the MUCK, which is pretty unfair. It would be really helpful if Azure just tells Agris why they cut contact, but instead, Agris just gets harassed off of every place she goes, supposedly for trying to find out what is going on with Azure, despite how little times Agris has attempted to contact Azure. But I find it hard to imagine Azure is truely responsible for everything here, so what the deal with Voksa and everyone else is, is unknown.
17:07 Azure | Nobody on Spindizzy will email them because NOBODY THERE LIKES THEM. Some people /did/ 17:07 Azure | But by repeatedly trying to force their way back on they became 'That fake guest who keeps pretending to be someone else and won't stop bothering me.' 17:07 Azure | So nobody's /keeping them away from their friends/, they /have no friends there because they have no concept of boundaries and think non-stop whining is the key to getting their way/ 17:08 Sierra | oh ok 17:09 Sierra | I guess the same thing happened here on irc? 17:10 Sierra | thanks for the information 17:10 Azure | I have no idea. I wasn't here for it. I told a chanop that he was bothering me but so long as he behaved and left me alone he could stay. 17:10 Sierra | ok 17:11 Azure | Apparently they didn't behave and when the chanop told him to stop it they wouldn't. 17:11 Sierra | I think that's enough to try and change some things
Agris has, for all we know, left Azure completely alone on FurNet in the span of 2022. And Agris did make some friends on SpinDizzy. Sadly, all of them have been convinced by the wizzes that they shouldn't communicate with Agris.
On 2 May 2022 Agris contacted Arca about the ban in #foxie, sending a log of what went down in #foxie when the ban occured. Arca replies to the log with:
arca [10:50:19] Seems pretty straightforward agris [10:50:27] what does? howso? arca [10:50:51] Everything I see there, I don't see the issue You were banned a while back for causing issues and disrupting the peace, following second chances behavior was repeated, there's no good reason to bring you back into #foxie now
I wonder whether Arca will give us any references to support that.
agris [10:51:53] what are you talking about? can you give an example? what second chance? and your ok with admins lying about me trying to get people brigaded off the network? arca [10:55:12] where are they saying that? agris [10:56:00] saying what arca [10:56:29] that you are trying to get people "brigaded off the network" agris [10:58:38] 03:32:08] <@wwolfy> i remember agris now I think and far as I know he ? changed his nick to join again without being unbanned forteh original offence so thats not well thought of and as I said admin have the right not to be overidden by othrr amin and certainly not by ops untill its discussed arca [10:59:34] That has nothing to do with you getting people off the network agris [10:59:55] and then the whole next paragraph their trying to band together to get a consistent story to go complain to network ops to arca [11:01:02] so? agris [11:02:06] so that's dishonest behavior that is also bullying and brigading what's your point? arca [11:02:34] there's no dishonesty that I can see, certainly not bullying, and I don't know what you mean by "brigading" agris [11:04:45] Brigading is an online harassment tactic where a group of people rally against an individual (or occasionally against a small group of people) in a coordinated, sustained and organized way. arca [11:05:26] So like you repeatedly causing issues in #foxie and ban-evading, that would be brigading? agris [11:05:33] no i never ban evaded
As I was saying, Agris does not actively remember the ban from a year ago, just joining the channel not seeming to be banned anymore, thinking everything's alright, so from Agris's POV she did not ban evade, and I don't think you can really hold something like ban evasion against someone who does not actively remember those events and is not actively evading a ban.
arca [11:05:48] alright agris [11:05:58] and i'm coming to you becaue narkiel and blue_j are causing issues arca [11:06:31] I'm not the boss of them. If they're PMing you and you don't like it, just block them. agris [11:06:57] their saying i did and brigading together to get me not just banned from #foxie but banned from the entire network your the owner of the channel #foxie and i'm banned from #foxie your privileges are higher than them arca [11:08:51] Yes, and that is not going to change agris [11:09:31] could you please unban me from #foxie and do something about narkiel and blue_J abusing their admin privilges arca [11:10:05] There is no admin abuse going on, you were correctly banned and haven't really shown a reason why you should be unbanned agris [11:10:29] I don't see that arca [11:10:45] And that's why you're not getting unbanned :P agris [11:10:57] can you give me an example? arca [11:11:04] It's not "brigading" to ban you, it's just them doing their job. Nah, I don't keep logs agris [11:11:42] spreading lies about me and working together to try and get me banned from the entire network is brigading wait so if you don't keep logs why are you saying i was correctly banned that doesn't make any sense what are you talking about? arca [11:14:14] Because I remember you being banned and being a general pest and troll. No one is "spreading lies" about you. You were a troll and you caught a ban, end of story. agris [11:16:29] tht's untrue why are you saying this about me? arca [11:19:07] Because you're asking me to unban you, I'm explaining to you why that is not going to happen at this time. agris [11:20:10] I have not gotten an explanation at all really? I asked if you could give me an example and you didn't instead you just insulted me and made accuzations what do you mean at this time? when? really, it just to me looks like your part of whatever these people have against me and are attacking me for arca [11:23:09] I haven't insulted you. I'm being pretty patient and generous with you despite you not really giving me a good reason to. No one is "attacking" you. You have been banned for being a jerk. You are the aggressor in this situation. What we "have against you" is you being a jerk to us. No one has to put up with that. agris [11:25:06] you have not really shown anything to support that arca [11:27:24] Please do not message me or other #foxie members about this issue any more. We don't have to put up with your harassment either. I was willing to be reasonable and listen but there's no reasonable attitude here. agris [11:27:46] stop harassing me stop slandering and defaming me stop you and your goons following me around the internet trying to defame and get me ostracized from everywhere I will find out who you are and i will seek justice you can't keep doing this to people; it WILL catch up to you eventually you were not reasonable at all arca [11:29:38] And this is why you will be removed from the network. Threats are unacceptable. Abusive behavior is unacceptable. agris [11:29:41] this is just gaslighting
What stands out to me is that Arca has no examples to show and keeps calling Agris a "pest", "troll" and a "jerk". They have no proof to show. Agris is just left without a valid reason, without a valid example of why they're banned. It doesn't make any sense. And this is not the only place where Agris gets banned for unclear reasons either. SpinDizzy, the fediverse, and even some places on FurrMuck are all the same, but here Arca doesn't even have a story to show off. Who is really doing the "abusive behavior" here? Agris is raising concerns about admin abuse, but Arca just labels her a troll and a jerk. Very unreasonable.
There is no admin abuse going on, you were correctly banned and haven't really shown a reason why you should be unbanned
This implies that #foxie works on a "ban first, questions later (or never)" policy. It seems the admins of #foxie aren't reasonable then, just like on SpinDizzy. Furthermore, this is shifting the burden of proof onto Agris. The admins of #foxie should have proof for why Agris is banned, which they do not have. So here it is: the proof of why Agris must be unbanned and that there is indication of admin abuse is documented right here.
And the next day, Agris gets banned from #handholding and #handholding-afterdark, by Arca, as well as #softpaws.
And then only a few hours later, Agris gets banned from FurNet, AGAIN!
wolf.furnet.org: *** You are banned from FurNet (Agris) wolf.furnet.org @ 13:01:12 ERROR: Closing Link: agris[nat4.nuegia.net] (User has been banned from FurNet (Agris)) 13:01:12 ERROR: Connection closed.
So the reason provided is just "Agris"? Really? They can't come up with any valid reason, can they? First it's "Immature/Underage", which is just plain false. Agris is not underage. And now it's just "Agris" As if that's enough of a reason.
Furthermore, the part message has been forged. To other people, it said "Client exited", which is definitely untrue. So no one would know that Agris was banned unless explicitly told. This is very Stasi-like behavior.
Agris was somehow able to connect again a few days later, so this time, Agris joins the #FurNet help channel:
.::. Furnet Admin/Help Channel .::. This is a HELP channel only! Do not idle here! .::. 17:04 -!- distaza [~mck317@fur-43F75971.fidnet.com] has joined #FurNet 17:04 -!- Topic for #FurNet: .::. Furnet Admin/Help Channel .::. This is a HELP channel only! Do not idle here! .::. 17:04 -!- Topic set by Lymril [] [Tue Oct 19 23:19:06 2021] 17:04 [Users #furnet] 17:04 [&FurBot] [&Lymril] [&Stephen] [ distaza] [ Stephen_] 17:04 -!- Irssi: #furnet: Total of 5 nicks [3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 2 normal] 17:04 -!- Channel #FurNet created Tue Jul 27 01:55:34 2021 17:04 -!- Irssi: Join to #furnet was synced in 1 secs 17:04 -!- agris [~agris@fur-17888FD8.nuegia.net] has joined #FurNet 17:06 < distaza> Agris wanted me to hop along with him. He noticed his ban appeared to be lifted, and was wondering if it was a technical issue. 17:06 < agris> also I was being banned from furnet with the reason (Agris) 17:06 < agris> off and on 17:06 < agris> nobody is saying anything 17:07 < agris> I don't really understand, perhaps there is a technical issue going on? 22:14 -!- agris [~agris@fur-17888FD8.nuegia.net] has quit [User has been banned from FurNet (Agris)]
Agris just gets re-banned without explanation.
In mid August 2022, Jae joined CyberSnoot, XMPP's largest English-speaking furry chatroom. Agris added Jae to her roster (roster is XMPP-speak for friends list). On 28 August 2022, Jae removed Agris from their roster, so Agris joined Jae's chatroom to ask why:
2022-08-28 04:38:25 Agris: Hello 2022-08-28 04:38:25 Agris: Jae? 2022-08-28 04:52:25 Agris: Jae (DN0), hello? 2022-08-28 09:13:22 Jae (DN0): https://yt.jaefi/watch?v=d-6V0KiQD2c?listen=1 2022-08-28 09:13:42 Agris: hi Jae (DN0) 2022-08-28 09:14:59 Agris: hello? 2022-08-28 09:15:00 Jae (DN0): https://yt.jae.fi/watch?v=d-6V0KiQD2c?listen=1 2022-08-28 09:15:06 Agris: Jae (DN0), 2022-08-28 09:22:06 Jae (DN0): https://yt.jae.fi/watch?v=mxajilx4scs?listen=1 2022-08-28 09:24:02 Jae (DN0): Ping 2022-08-28 09:24:44 Jae (DN0): yes? 2022-08-28 09:25:09 Agris: Jae (DN0), is something going on? 2022-08-28 09:25:24 Jae (DN0): No need to ping 10 times 2022-08-28 09:25:35 Agris: i didn't hear anything back 2022-08-28 09:25:49 Agris: Did you remove me from your roster? 2022-08-28 09:26:15 Jae (DN0): updates 2022-08-28 09:26:23 Agris: what? 2022-08-28 09:27:38 Jae: You know what you did and you know damn well. 2022-08-28 09:38:27 Agris: no i have no fucking clue what's going on. 2022-08-28 09:38:38 Agris: i didn't even say anything to you and neither did you to me 2022-08-28 09:38:58 Agris: and then one day you removed me from your roster and now your banning me from here 2022-08-28 09:39:07 Agris: What the hell is going on Jae? 2022-08-28 09:39:23 Agris: also, if you want me to read what you say you shouldn't ban me 2022-08-28 09:39:29 Agris: Jae, what's going on? 2022-08-28 09:40:40 Agris: what does updates mean? 2022-08-28 09:44:01 Agris: what do you think I did? 2022-08-28 09:44:33 Agris: Jae (DN0),
Agris got banned from the room afterwards. Again we immediately see the pattern that we've been seeing the entire time. "You know what you did and you know damn well." Sounds familiar doesn't it? To this point, everyone who has been attacking Agris has been saying things along those lines, saying Agris already knows what she did wrong, even though we have no single idea what they are talking about. No examples given, no explanation given. Sounds like a bunch of gaslighting.
I went ahead and DM'd Jae on Matrix to see if I could get any more info.
Squeaky Latex Folf: What's going on? Hello? Jae: what? Squeaky Latex Folf: Why did you ban agris? Jae: Because people saying stuff like was said in the other room aren't welcomed in my personal ones. Squeaky Latex Folf: What do you mean with "You know what you did and you know damn well."? Agris has no idea what they did. Why did you remove Agris from your roster? What kind of stuff? Jae: Oh please, you were the ones to start whole rents on that, you know exactly what I mean. * Jae left the room
No examples at all, no quoting, no logs. All I get is "you know what you did", "you know exactly what I mean". Of course I don't and that's why I'm asking you. This is clearly gaslighting. Is Jae really doing it on purpose? Is this related to anything on IRC or SpinDizzy? I doubt it, but the patterns are definitely there, so who knows? Jae does seem like the type to get into MUCKs.
Because Jae was just straight up gaslighting me, I tried reaching out to one of their friends, Java, who I thought I was in good terms with.
Squeaky Latex Folf: Hey. A little while ago Jae joined cybersnoot, which is probably the most popular furry room on XMPP ran by Agris. Today, Jae removed Agris from their friends list, and Agris joined Jae's room to ask why but Jae just says "You know what you did and you know damn well." and then ban Agris from the room or even shut down their whole XMPP server, so I ask Jae in DMs on Matrix why they banned Agris and Jae said "Because people saying stuff like was said in the other room aren't welcomed in my personal ones.", and I ask what they mean by that and Jae says "Oh please, you were the ones to start whole rents on that, you know exactly what I mean.", which looks like intentional infliction of emotional disstress. Especially saying I know what he means while that's not true at all does not make sense. Do you have any idea what could be going on? Java: I have likr no awareness of the xmpp scene Squeaky Latex Folf: Jae also left my DMs here on Matrix Java: Idk Squeaky Latex Folf: This makes no sense though. Agris has been getting harassed for a long time now, and now Jae is doing exactly that too It's like a pattern Squeaky Latex Folf: Also, Jae banned Agris after saying "updates", after which Agris returned under an alt account. Does updates mean anything special? Java: Idk why jae said it like that I talked to jae she told be but i promised to not share I find the reason resonable And tbh its jaes server and friendlist She can in the end be selective about who she wants to talk to
"but i promised to not share" So what Jae told me was just a cover-up? There is another secret reason that Jae told Java and doesn't want Java to tell us? If so, I guess Java spoiled himself by implying the existence of another reason. Or maybe Jae is just being vague to me and told Java the full details while leaving me clueless? It's all very unclear, but in any case I know that I got false info from Jae that means nothing, probably to gaslight me.
Also "I find the reason reasonable". Wow. A few years ago, I got mistreated by Furry Tech admins sometimes (including Jae and Java) because of my opinions. Java apologized to me about it a while after these events, but now it seems whatever reason Jae has given Java is now "reasonable"? Even if it's just some political disagreement? Perhaps all of this was started because of political disagreements.
Squeaky Latex Folf: Wait so there's a different reason behind it? Why is it secret? Java: Idk, i think jae is just annoyed But it boils down to other stuff we have talked about at other times Squeaky Latex Folf: Are you harassing Agris? Java: ???? I dont even know who that is Squeaky Latex Folf: Are you stalking Agris? Java: I chose to not continue this conversation I can see why jae left now * Java left the room
I've never seen Java behave this weirdly. Sure, it's weird of me to ask those questions, but they have to be asked. It's to test Java, and Java has failed the test. My trust is broken.
Java did mention that the reason has to do with other things I have discussed with Java before. Sadly, Matrix sucks really bad in keeping encrypted chat logs, so I cannot retrieve those. My guess is that it is indeed a political disagreement.
Let's face it: the furry fandom has been very divided because of just people disagreeing with each others' opinions. It's truly outrageous. In this fandom, people cannot respect each other because of a disagreement. Come on, really? Agris getting defamed and ostracized just because she doesn't like Imgur and tells people to stop using it. Agris getting defamed because she thinks curbstomping people is only something hateful people do? I suppose people in this fandom want hate and violence, and if you don't, you'll get harassed and stalked and defamed and gaslighted. Is this a loud minority or a loud majority? I really cannot tell anymore. I thought this only happened on Twitter, Discord, Mastodon, but no, it goes much further, and to my surprise, IRC and MUCKs were the most awful here. I've never been harassed this much on Discord before. I did get harassed on Discord because of people just disagreeing with me, but they never stalked me or went out of their way to make my day horrible anywhere I would go. Meanwhile, this is exactly the treatment Agris is getting on IRC, MUCKs, ActivityPub, and now even her own XMPP server! And this even spans Matrix now too?! And I'm right in the middle of it.
I really wish people in this fandom would be more kind and loveful, rather than defaulting to hating each other. I thought this fandom was about being open-minded, but it is exactly the opposite. The same hateful people would argue that "you can't be tolerant of the intolerant", but if you think about it, this phrase has really lost its meaning. Sure, people who are obviously trolling and abusive don't deserve your time, and you can block them and be over with it. However, nowadays, a lot of people are shoved under the "intolerant" category. It's not just trolls now. Just anyone someone disagrees with is now an "intolerant" being. People in this fandom are now being intolerant of the tolerant. People cannot get along at all anymore. People get excluded all the time. It's time to make a difference. Why can't we be whoever we are? Why won't people respect us no matter our views, norms, opinions, habits? That's what this fandom was supposed to be about. About love. We need more love in this world. So please, take what I say, and try to be more loveful to people, even if you don't like them. Everyone deserves love and respect.