Agris   "does this server have memoserv"
Lymril  "Agris: Yes, it does."
Lymril  "Agris and lambda, do you need something?"
Lymril  "Heyo."
Sierra  "hello"
Agris   "hello"
Lymril  "What's going on with Agris and this other person?"
Sierra  "I'm Sierra, a friend of Agris"
Sierra  "Agris told me you want to speak with me"
Lymril  "Hi distaza
         What's going on with Agris and this other person?
         Bismuthine?"
distaza "Well, a whole lot of crap is floating around, but it boils down to this...
         Some weir tension between Agris and some key people is causing him to get a whole bunch of shade thrown around at him. This shade, in turn, is souring other people's views of him and causing people to be antsy around him."
Lymril  "What key people? ChanOps in other channels?"
Sierra  "Primarily Bismuthine on #affection"
Lymril  "Is he a ChanOp?"
distaza "I'm not sure.
         I will say that a ChanOp did put a temp ban on Agris."
Agris   "I'd like to point out that it's not just one channel"
Lymril  "I wish Bismuthine were online, I'd like to hear what he has to say. You said he was the primary person. Are there others who are online that have been making trouble for Agris?"
distaza "Well, the bottom line of it is that, it's not really making trouble that's so bad, it's the hot water that trouble gets Agris in with the administration."
Lymril  "Have you tried explaining the issue to the chanops of those channels?"
distaza "Well, there was a miscommunication involving some vague grammar which completely shut down further talks.
         As far as I can tell, anyway.
         At least with one individual."
Lymril  "I've had that same problem..."
Agris   "It's not the latest particular ban that's the problem
         well, it is a problem
         but the issue at point is the pattern of behavior of going to channels I'm in, spreading rumors and lies about me
         ruining my reputation
         and then I get banned"
Lymril  "What is he saying about you?"
distaza "That he's a stalker, and a few assorted things.
         We've been told the logs are 'sensitive'."
Agris   "He's said I'm sending animal harm videos"
distaza "So we don't know, actually, exactly what's being said."
Agris   "That I'm harassing them
         I have logs of some earlier events that happened in another channel"
Lymril  "Is anyone else online that can explain the other side of this issue?"
distaza "Not to my knowledge who's willing to tell.
         Which is the key concern.
         Is the willingness to communicate what issues there are in a manner that allows for recourse."
Lymril  "You don't know why this thing started?"
distaza "There are ideas but this whole thing has a vage impetus
         Ahem, vague*."
Lymril  "I can understand that."
distaza "The rest is various individuals just being asked to be left alone to sour Agris's rep, and further souring afterward.
         And any attempt at solving it is becoming further 'harassment' or even 'stalking'.
         So Agris is effectively tied to just take it with no ability to change his circumstances. Frankly it crosses my mind whether anyone would notice him under a new alias."
Lymril  "Sometimes it can be. You just have to know when something can't be fixed and let it drop."
Agris   "I'm not the one who won't let it drop."
distaza "True. But at least having some acknowledgement from someone of authority that that indeed *is* the case serves some use."
Lymril  "You can change your nick, if you want. I'd suggest putting these others on /ignore and never saying another thing to them or about them. It will take time, but it will take time, but eventually it will drop. Just like bad press in the papers."
Agris   "Lymril, I'm not saying anything to Bismuthine here."
Lymril  "Good, then."
Agris   "They're the one who is going around slandering me to various chanops and users"
Sierra  "We are mostly left in the dark on the why this continues to happen."
distaza "If your official suggestion is a nick change, would you be comfortable with that being on the record?"
Lymril  "Well, I'd love them to come slander you to me. I can't do much if I can't talk to them either. If they won't talk to me I'm not really at liberty to do anything about it. We have a strictly hands off policy toward running other channels."
distaza "Understood."
Siera   "Sounds reasonable."
Lymril  "People do it all the time. You can quote me on that."
distaza "Cool."
Lymril  "Just don't use it for ban evasion.
         That's a karma no-no."
distaza "Hm. What prevents it being ban evasion?
         I'm under the impression using any alias under any circumstances at the same time as a ban would be, yes?"
Lymril  "If you know you're banned, don't join the channel under any nicks.
         There's a good chance people will eventually find out the 'new' nick is the old Agris."
distaza "Okay, and if the ban goes to permanent, hypothetically, without recourse or applicable reason, what would one do?"
Lymril  "Nothing."
distaza "On the record?"
Lymril  "Yes, you aren't allowed to evade bans. If you're not wanted by the channel's admins, then you must stay out."
distaza "I think that satisfies my curiosity...
         And this is an arbitrary notion, the staff simply exist to enforce that notion, not determine its rationale.
         If I have it right."
Lymril  "I'm not sure what you mean."
distaza "To rephrase, there need not be a discussion or process for a permanent ban. The purpose of staff in this case is limited to enforcement.
         Which, if broken, leads to a server ban.
         Now I'm not saying there is no process, but that there need not be. It's a very delicate distinction."
Lymril  "According to the letter of the law, yes, but I don't rigidly follow the book."
distaza "It is good in these cases to know the limitation of one's rights.
         Strictly speaking."
Lymril  "Channel ownership does exist, and the owner of the channel can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, for any reason, or no reason at all."
distaza "Glad that's out in the open."
Lymril  "Right, I won't touch channel matters. If you can't deal with a certain channel, then join another."
Agris   "Yeah, I'm glad that was made clear as well."
Sierra  "Ok so the nick change is just to evade slander while it settles, the bans need to be appealed with the channel owner/admins"
distaza "Thanks for the talk, Lymril, I think what we can ask you to do or what we might want from you doesn't line up with the rights we strictly have."
Lymril  "I wouldn't advise any more "appeals" or talking to them in any way. Join all new channels."
distaza "Yeah."
Lymril  "One way people get recognized after changing nicks is by going to all the same channels.
         Behavior is another thing. Some people are incedibly good at recognizing those who change their nicks simply by the way they type or say things."
Sierra  "I don't remember the offiial name for that."
distaza "I see nothing wrong with 'talking to them' or being upfront, I think they can take responsibility for their actions. I just wouldn't ask you to step in and I wouldn't violate your rules.
         That's all."
Lymril  "If you keep pushing it when they don't want to talk to you, it can be considered harassment or stalking."
distaza "What about open disclosure?
         Could that be considered harassment?
         Similarly, off-network content.
         Such as a blog."
Lymril  "Anything can be considered harassment. Even just being on the internet at all. Go for the total /ignore and drop the matter entirely."
Agris   "It's become clear that's not going to resolve the issue Lymril"
Lymril  "If you change your nick and keep your head down, who's going to know it's you?"
distaza "If anything can be considered harassment, what's the maximum action that can be taken against it?"
Lymril  "If it's pervasive, a network ban."
Agris   "That's kinda de-personizing."
distaza "Agris, you know that making this issue directly with the staff, regardless of how moral you think it is, will go nowhere.
         Even just questioning its morality can be considered a form of harassment, as we've outlined."
Lymril  "Exactly. It could end up going badly for YOU. If they want to be left alone, leave them alone."
distaza "If anything can be harassment, including just presence, a 'pervasive presence' could be bannable?
Lymril  "Harassment is a very vague term. It's all in the eye of the beholder." (To the contrary. It's defined very clearly in the network rules, and then made inconsistent with a giant loophole.)
distaza "So server bans are by-eye then.
         So long as it's under harassment."
Lymril  "It's a judgment call and far from perfect. If they don't want you bothering them, then don't. Forget about it."
distaza "Yeah. Alright, well thanks for giving us the tour."
Lymril  "I hope it helped, at least."
distaza "At least we established exactly -what- the boundaries are without any uncertainty."
Lymril  "Yes. If you're banned from a channel, that's pretty much it. If you keep fighting it, the only way to do it is to keep finding undiscovered proxies and ban evading. There's an official name for that. It's "troll"."
distaza "Mm. The rules here would mean that once you've been detected and been given a bad run, you have not many options even if you rejoin under a new alias.
         As if you become 'present' again, it's over."
Lymril  "Right. And you should not rejoin if you know you aren't wanted."
distaza "Well, it's been funky."
Lymril  "The interwebs can be like that."
distaza "Thanks for the words of the sea, interweb sailor."
Lymril  "Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics: even if you win, you're still retarded."
distaza "Better to argue for real then."
Lymril  "Chat rooms aren't worth arguing about."
distaza "Suppose not.
         Not much else to add.
         Whaddya say you two? Call it a wrap?"
Sierra  "I'd say so"
Lymril  "Be sure to change your identd and realname fields as well."
distaza "'Course."
Sierra  "oh if we change the nick?
         or in general?"
distaza "I'm not a common participant here, and not many people really know me. I'm just a sailor on the ocean.
         But if I were to want to rejoin after a ban, yeah, thanks for the tips."
Lymril  "Do a whois on yourself. Agris is ~agris@[identd] * agris"
Agris   "Lymril, I can't change my ident
         I'm on a shared IP address."
distaza "It's not their problem, and even if it was, it wouldn't actually change the situation."
Sierra  "Lymril: Can I ask for a favour?"
Lymril  "Depends what it is."
Sierra  "I'm going on a trip to a place where sites like furnet are considered "suspicious" or outright blocked
         but I still want to be able to connect and talk with the friends I made here."
Lymril  "It's okay with me."
Sierra  "Would there be a way to allow traffic coming from tor exit nodes? I'm assuming I would need to identify"
Lymril  "Not that I'm aware of. Many of then are permanently banned because of trolls using them. You can probably find one that's not banned if you keep trying, though.
Sierra  "Would that leave a mark on my nick if I keep trying to connect using different servers?"
Lymril  "Nope."
Sierra  "Thanks."
distaza "The fundamental conclusion I'm reaching from this is, nothing here is explicitly promised, at least involving anything at or above presence in a given room. That's the bottom line. Anything can be revoked by the people with the keys to it, and there is nothing that can be done to change this fact, no matter what is attempted, or under what context or rationale it is dressed.
         Just want to make sure I'm not mistaken, so I wanted to put that down as my final query."
Agris returns.
Agris   "Sorry, I was AFK."
Lymril  "Yes, that's pretty much it."
distaza "It's cool, Agris.
         Thank you, Lymril, for being upfront and honest."
Lymril  "No problem. :)"
Agris   "Lymril, you should probably know that I'm n a shared IP address.
         The ident identifies which user is behind the shared IP address."
Lymril  "That's not an issue. Lots of people are."
Agris   "It's not something I can easily just change."
distaza "You are at the very least a beacon of consistency in a world of chaos, regardless of whatever else may occur, and although I'm not on the same page as you it's nice talking to someone who doesn't mince it."
Lymril  "Whoever controls the IP can probably change it."
distaza "Agris, there is nothing we can do here.
         Even if everything about you were different this server runs by-eyeball.
         Only reasonable suspicion or even inclination is necessary to act on you.
         There is quite literally nothing to do. Nothing that doesn't involve some form of good faith."
Lymril  "For channels, anyway. I try to dig a bit deeper."
distaza "That's neat and all, but you have no idea how valuable it is to actually be able to lay down what the minimum reaction necessary actually honest-to-god is."
Sierra  "And if the IP is shared then there wouldn't be a 1:1 match between nicks and the IP."
Lymril  "Yes, anyone can start a channel and run it however they please. If they don't please people, nobody hangs out there and the channel dies."
distaza "Ultimately, at the very least, now that I know it I think there's not much else to ask, do, or request.
         As doing so would rely on a good inclination which is not strictly there."
Lymril  "Sierra: It doesn't matter. Lots of people use bouncers, shared IPs, VPNs, unsecured proxies, etc."
distaza "Although it is appreciated.
         I do appreciate everything you've done."
Lymril  "Thank you for that. It's often a thankless job, but it has its perks."
distaza "Hey, you put in work to povide standards above minimum. That means it means something to you."
Lymril  "It does, yes."
distaza "I don't know what it means but I respect that you've found meaning here."
Lymril  "I love this place. I've been here 24 years, now."
distaza "I hope it continues to love you too."
Lymril  "Me too."
distaza "Keep on keeping on."
Lymril  "Will there be anything else?"
distaza "Not from me."
Sierra  "Me neither."
Lymril  "Okay then. In that case, please /part the channel. We keep it private because we deal with personal issues here."
distaza "Can I quote you on the agreement with my final conclusion?
         That's all I came here to establish."
Lymril  "Sure. If it turns out to be wrong, I can always make a retraction."
distaza "Absolutely."